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+-- Forum: General Discussions (/forumdisplay.php?fid=10)
+--- Forum: Political Debates (/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Announcement From The American People (/showthread.php?tid=95)
RE: A Public Announcement - isoFlux - 01-27-2005 04:22 AM
i never heard anything about bush doing anything with the assault rifle ban. though it expiring would definatly please the NRA peoples.
its ironic how the media (and therefore most people) really give the thumbs up to bush for helping our national security. when in fact, all he really did was:
1) make a new bullshit office that does nothing but look important
2) stir up relations with countries that already have disagreements with us
3) increase the hatred of our country in the middle east, giving fuel to those who have the will and the power to attack the US.
also, shouldn\'t we consider our soldiers dying as part of the casualties of \"terrorist\" attacks on the US? not only are there Americans being shot and blown up in a place where most Americans couldn\'t pick out on a globe, WE STARTED IT. there have been more causualties of terrorism than people care to think, or our government points out.
RE: A Public Announcement - Crazy_Ivan - 01-27-2005 08:27 AM
it\'s the fact that he DIDN\'T do anything with that ban.
Altough many people were supportive about extending the law for some more years, he choose not to touch the subject, resulting in another 4 years in office.
Touching gun laws will almost certainly cost your presidency when there is an election... but the people from the USA can tell more about that.
RE: A Public Announcement - Yellowbelly - 01-27-2005 09:30 AM
I actually heard that he wanted to put it re-ban it but I\'m glad he didn\'t. It was probably false.
also Isoflux:
1) How do you know that the Homesecurity office doesn\'t do anything?
2) Sure he stirred up relations with other countries, but do you think that the other countries were wrong in the first place?
3) The middle-east hates us enough already. People like Saddam funded terrorists and let them in their country. Is it worth it to get rid of a threat to the US for POSSIBLY losing a little good reputation which we don\'t have anyways?
If we look back in history, many countries hated the US from THE VERY BEGINNING. Many nations with monarchies and dictatorships HATE the idea of freedom. That gives ideas to the people of the nation so they want to demand the same thing. The only way to make this not happen is if that monarchy or dictatorship rules by propaganda and terror so there is no possibility of revolt. China- Students of 1989?, Iraq- anyone who plots or protests against the gov., etc.
RE: A Public Announcement - isoFlux - 01-27-2005 02:52 PM
the middle east hates us. they hated us before the invasion of Iraq (for a variety of reasons). so why hit a bee hive with a baseball bat? you don\'t increase national security by invading an extremely volitile, fundamentalist country that hates you. that is NOT the safest option.
Quote:The only way to make this not happen is if that monarchy or dictatorship rules by propaganda and terror so there is no possibility of revolt.are you suggesting that democracies dont use these same tactics? in democracies, esp the democracy in the US, use very similar tactics of persuasion and propaganda. it just takes different forms. in the case of the USSR it was posters and the KGB. in the US its the mass media (FOX, for example) and the CIA. don\'t sugar coat the US government. they are just as down-and-dirty as totalitarian regimes and oligarchys. its just in a different colored box.
simplicity is something that does not exist in the real world. you cant say: \"well, everybody that protests democracy in Iraq is _____ [insert evil, a terrorist, or a destoyer of freedom]\". you have to look at the big picture.
the Sunni Muslims are the only group that is actually protesting the implementation of a Democratic government. it isnt because they dont have a hardon for patriotism or freedom, its because they want power. the Shiites are the majority and have been shit on by the Ba\'ath party since it\'s institution. they dont mind a democracy because it gives them the perfect chance to instate an Iranian-style Theocracy and totally fuck over the Sunnis. and the Kurds have been shit on during this whole mess.
in their fundamentalist point of view, freedom IS an Islamic Theocracy. freedom is subjective.
democracy has gaping flaws, but all in all is a superior and \"fairer\" system to most others (besides true communism, but we have yet to witness a country who has done it right). but that doesnt mean that we need to shove it in people\'s faces and thrust it down their cultural throats. they arent ready for it. they dont want it. and cramming up their ass with an iron fist will only piss them off. social-political-economic changes take time. and despite our best efforts, the Marine Corps will not make the process any less damaging or leave smaller scars.
also, this is an interesting concept. lets take:
Quote:Many nations with monarchies and dictatorships HATE the idea of freedom. That gives ideas to the people of the nation so they want to demand the same thing.and apply it on a larger, international scale.
how about this:
America is the superpower, and of couse we want it to stay that way. we do this by proving our system to be superior.
but what if people find ways of doing things better? what if somebody else structures their system very differently from ours and people are still happy and productive? we would loose reputation and superiority. that means that the US needs to suppress all other forms of government that do not comply with the basic principals of the one we have.
communism, theocracies, oligarchies, you name it. to stay in power and on top, we must crush people who oppose us, even if they might have good ideas.
oh, and name ONE thing the Dept. of Homeland Security can do that the War Dept. (oh, excuse me, they re-named it the Dept. of Defense to sugar-coat our \"police actions\") can\'t or shouldn\'t do.
RE: A Public Announcement - Yellowbelly - 01-27-2005 03:25 PM
I disagree. I think the Iraqis do want a democracy. I think they\'ve been wanting it since saddam had power.
Democracies can\'t use the same tactics although some are similar. And I would not call FOX new propaganda by ANY means.
I don\'t think a theocracy is getting put in place in Iraq either. I think that there will be some separation of church and state to some degree.
As far as I know, our Democracy system is superior. But I have not heard of one instance that America completely demolishes a nation because it has a better government than it. It\'s absolutely rediculous. And by destroying that nation, America doesn\'t really get to be more powerful.
The bees were already swarming before we went into Iraq and Afhganistan. We protected national security by taking out a threat. We took out more than half of 2 different terrorist organizations in the process and Al-Queda is struggling to get back on its feet. There hasn\'t been a successful attack on the US since 9/11 although there were a few attempts and plots. Even an Al-Queda operative tried to blow the Brooklyn Bridge but thanks to the Patriot act, we could arrest him on the spot before getting a warrant and wait for the thing to blow. I honestly think that we\'re pretty safe now. Also, if you don\'t remember Bush\'s speech right after 9/11 he said that the US will not stop hunting down Al-Queda and their network until its destroyed and that he\'s going after the nations that harbor and support them.
I think that HomeLand Securtiy is kinda dumb in a few ways. Just with the color codes of all the terrorist threat crap and blah blah blah. But if you try to view it from the Presidents point, if he doesn\'t make it, he\'ll be viewed as ineffective. If he does make it, it will ve viewed as rediculous and uneeded. Better be safe than sorry. It\'s just a few more cabinent members and advisors to help out which doesn\'t hurt at all.
RE: RE: A Public Announcement - =D.C.L.I=TuRb0jUg3nD - 01-27-2005 08:33 PM
Yellowbelly Wrote:And I would not call FOX new propaganda by ANY means.
It would be interesting to know how you rate G?ebbels? Friendly info-dude under WW2?
BTW Ted Turner, founder of CNN, very recently compared Fox News\' coverage of the american election with Hitler\'s propaganda before and under WW2.
The major difference being the germans actually labeling it \"propaganda\".
RE: A Public Announcement - joeb - 01-27-2005 09:23 PM
wow, some really good posts here, keep it up :tup:
RE: A Public Announcement - The_Punisher - 01-27-2005 11:18 PM
Recently, someone ranked all the major news networks based upon how objective and politically biased they were by applying one of those simple politics tests.
All the major news networks ranked no less then 30 points to the left. Fox news ranked 2 points to the right.
Figure the bias out now.
RE: A Public Announcement - =D.C.L.I=TuRb0jUg3nD - 01-27-2005 11:32 PM
We\'re talking left off Hitler, right? Fox being 2 points beyond the nazi party suprises me not. The \"leftist bias\" in american press is a tired clich? which no longer stands. Even the Washington Post has become a safe haven for the powers that be.
RE: A Public Announcement - shift - 01-27-2005 11:58 PM
Ahem... well, anyway. Punisher, I think that the \"left\" and \"right\" concepts in the USA are significatively different than in Europe.
What you call \"left\" there would be just \"right/center\" around here, and that could be translated as \"mainly conservative with some social politics attached to it\". So you can imagine what would be the positioning of the USA\'s \"right\" in an European context. Yes, quite right in the right side.