Black people in prison/death row

[isoFlux]

You do not choose to live a life of crime, poverty, and inadequate education. Period. I did not choose to grow up in Torrance. Friends of mine did not choose to grow up in Compton, the City of Industry, or Salinas. It\'s not quite a caste system, but in many cases resembles one.

One of it\'s many forms is the \"downward spiral\" effect. A poor neighborhood has poor schools (due to low-value housing producing limited property taxes, the main income for the US public school system), and therefore produces inadequatly prepared graduates. It is less likely for a poorly educated person to get a high-paying job or enter a university. The low-income graduates that do make it into a university or higher-paying job do so outside of their low-income birthplace (because the high-income jobs are elsewhere). The low-income communities stay low-income and the quality of education and social programs never increases, never giving inhabitants of those communities the chance to improve.

\"So why not move?\" Its expensive to move to begin with. On top of that, move to where? Another low-income community? Most likely they won\'t have the education, skills, or reputation to secure a high-income job and pay to live in a high-income area (actually, most teachers in high-income areas rarely live in those areas: they do not make living wage for the communities they teach in.)

As much as we deny it, or try to prevent it, there are social strata that limit upward mobility, especially of low-income workers and families. It is possible to move up, but there are many road-blocks that hinder people \"breaking away\" from the social echelon of their families and moving upward.

And since black people form a huge chunk of low-income workers and families, we see a disproportional ammount of black people in prison, lacking education, and never \"making it big\".

The_Punisher Wrote:If you did some realty research, you would see that I am indeed correct.

Not only is this a HUGE fallacy, it\'s plain retarded. If your \"research\" proves you correct/right/whatever in EVERY way, lets see it. Cite. If you this claim about your research, back it up and give us a bibliography. It would also be nice if your sources are peer-reviewed. Regardless of whether you actually do, I will compile a list of peer-reviewed articles, journals and summaries that support my claims for every point you ask me to.

Your research doesn\'t prove your point. YOU do. Your research validates your conclusions, not the other way around.

isoFlux Wrote:Many races and cultures have been the target of descrimination and descriminatory legislation throughout US history. None of them compare to the enslavement of Africans.

I revise this statement. None of them compare, with the exception of the extermination and oppression of the Native-Americans.

[dr.moe]

isoFlux Wrote:

joeb Wrote:Iso, I take it you mean education instead of IQ?

No. I do not have a source, but I will find one, or will revoke it. Yes, what I said may have sounded crazy, unrealistic, and downright racist, but I\'m 100% positive I have heard from multiple, independent sources that the average IQ of the black race is lags behind other cultures in the US. I\'m not sure on the details (how much, etc), but I wouldn\'t be surprised to find it to be true.
EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence . Interesting read.
Also, take note: I am not arguing for the effects of racial genetics on IQ, they are nearly non-existant. Rather, the social and cultural affects on intelligence, which are based on race(ism).

see, this is one of the problems with IQ tests. giving the test to someone that doesnt read the language is ridiculous. also, testing someone about an area outside of their scope of experience is ridiculous. there was one instance of a group of schools in kansas
who\'s kids were scoring low in standardized tests. turns out they didnt understand what a hill was or something. along the same lines, giving an IQ test designed for American classrooms to a papua new guinea tribesman will show that the tribesman has a very low IQ.

this is the inherent flaw with grading something as intangible as intelligence. now, i know that there is something called \"stereotype threat\"(or something like that) where being told that you cant do something because youre south-american/pacific-islander/white/black/asian/male/female/poor/rich may affect your performance on the required task. though that threat also works in reverse, so big deal.

isoFlux Wrote:

dr.moe Wrote:but the point is that slavery sucked and now its done. the best reason to learn about it is to keep such craziness from repeating. but that is the extent to its effect on modern day society.

I beg to differ. The affects of slavery linger today in a major way. One example: the language and slang of the black community, including both old and young (pop-culture). Why are the black dialects so poor in terms of conjucation and grammar? I submit that it is a direct decendent of black people being kept from literacy until the middle of the 20th century. What about black people not being able to seriously vote until the mid-50s/early-60s? Was that because they chose to live in areas of poverty? Or was it because of white-skin-priviledge still trying to bludgeon its way into the US democratic system?

a couple things right here - the dialect (poor in verb conjugation and grammar) of which you wrote isnt limited to black peeps, its a southern dialect. cruise down to georgia or mississippi and everyone, regardless of race, talks that way.

living in areas of poverty? well, the great-state of mississippi isnt exactly a powerhouse state.

isoFlux Wrote:

dr.moe Wrote:now saying that the reason a black man is more likely to commit a felony because a white dude enslaved his great-great-grandad implies that black people have the exclusive possesion of something hitherto only alluded to in science fiction called a "racial memory."

What about "social memory"? It isn\'t an affect on individuals. Its about an entire culture, society, and government oppressing and enslaving a minority for over 200 years. Is that going to go away in 10 years? 20? 50? 100? No. We\'re talking billions of people (you, me, my parents, your parents, their parents), not just one black dude and his grandfather.

.... im not too sure what you were trying to convey there, but it got me thinking about something: perspective. we\'re talking 200 years of slavery and crap performed against a singular group. and because of that eyeblink, black peeps have lower IQ\'s and steal stuff?(i paraphrase and simplify because im lazy) my thought was about the jewish peeps - theyve been persecuted for longer than a couple nations. basically, they would crowd together in their ghettos(i think thats where the term comes from) and whenever the society fell upon hard times theyd blame it on the jews. they were enslaved and murdered and all kinds of crazy stuff - but that doesnt seem to slow them down now.

the recap: slavery happened, it stopped in the us but now we just cant let it go. whatever we do to rectify it is too little, but to let it sit and stagnate is worse. can more be done about racism? always, but failure to acknowledge what progress we\'ve made shows that progress cant be achieved. the past is done, accept it and move on.

if you(anybody) feel yourself inferior because your \"race\" was enslaved for a couple hundred years - i feel sorry for you. seriously man, the environment is just a huge excuse or a rationalization, it always comes down to the person. there are really just two questions that need be answered
1.) What do you want?
2.) What will you do to get it?
My grandad\'s place in society will never affect my answers to those questions.

[dr.moe]

isoFlux Wrote:You do not choose to live a life of crime, poverty, and inadequate education. Period. I did not choose to grow up in Torrance. Friends of mine did not choose to grow up in Compton, the City of Industry, or Salinas. It\'s not quite a caste system, but in many cases resembles one.

sorta, you didnt choose to start there. you only chose to stay there.

isoFlux Wrote:As much as we deny it, or try to prevent it, there are social strata that limit upward mobility, especially of low-income workers and families. It is possible to move up, but there are many road-blocks that hinder people "breaking away" from the social echelon of their families and moving upward.

as soon as anyone accepts that as fact they are beaten. they limit themselves if they belief they cannot change anything. your life is your life. if you want something, dont stop at the road blocks. look at Michael Jordan: he failed countless times before he succeeded once - more than just getting cut from his HS basketball team. Abe Lincoln spent more than half of his life failing(his bro was a drunk and a gambler, he failed at a lot of businesses, his wife died, he suffered a nervous breakdown, his son was killed, he was a poor attourney, etc.) before he landed in the oval office.

the only thing that happens to you is your birth/childhood. just about everything else after that is all on you.

[isoFlux]

Anthony, Marcus. \"Whose Tangle is it Anyway? The African-American Family, Poverty and United States Kinship.\" Australian Journal of Anthropology 16 (2005): 47-61. Academic Search Premier. EBSCO. San Jose. 2 Nov. 2005.

Berry, Bonnie, and Earl Smith. \"Race, Sport, and Crime: The Misrepresentation of African Americans in Team Sports and Crime.\" Sociology of Sport Journal 17 (2000): 171-197. Academic Search Premier. EBSCO. San Jose. 2 Nov. 2005.

Day-Vines, Norma L., James M. Patton, and Baytops L. Joy. \"Counseling African American Adolescents: The Impact of Race, Culture, and Middle Class Status.\" Professional School Counseling 7 (2003): 40-51. Academic Search Premier. EBSCO. San Jose. 2 Nov. 2005.

Hammack, Philhp L., Robinson W. Lavome, Isiaah Crawford, and Susan T. Li. \"Poverty and Depressed Mood Among Urban African-American Adolescents: A Family Stress Perspective.\" Journal of Child & Family Studies 13 (2004): 309-323. Academic Search Premier. EBSCO, San Jose. 2 Nov. 2005.

Jarrett, Robin L. \"Worlds of development: The experiences of low-income, African-American youth.\" Journal of Children & Poverty 9 (2003): 157+. Academic Search Premier. EBSCO. San Jose. 2 Nov. 2005.

Lafree, Gary, Kriss A. Drass, and Patrick O\'day. \"Race and Crime in Postwar America: Determinants of African-American and White Rates, 1957-1988.\" Criminology 30 (1992): 157-188. Academic Search Premier. EBSCO. San Jose. 2 Nov. 2005.

[Sgt. Boomer]

isoFlux Wrote:You do not choose to live a life of crime, poverty, and inadequate education.

Yes they do choose it. They choose not to pay attention in class, not to study, or to skip classes. I understand it’s more difficult to concentrate when you’re depressed, or malnourished, or dealing with an abusive home-life, or have a lousy teacher. But not everyone with a difficult childhood becomes a criminal, or turns to substance abuse.

They (criminals of all colours) choose to become drug dealers instead of learning a trade, or taking a job at Macdonalds. A recent book, Freakonomics, showed that the majority of drug dealers make less than minimum wage. They become drug dealers because it’s easier, because it’s exciting. Getting a job at Macdonalds takes effort, it takes humility and delayed gratification. It’s easier to cave in to peer pressure and hang out with the cool kids in a gang. It’s easier to not plan for the future and just live for the moment.

Sure it’s more difficult to do the right thing when you’re poor, and you know you don’t have the brains or talent to become a doctor or lawyer or athlete or something other than a blue-collar worker your whole life, but most people (black and white) in that position don’t turn to a life of crime. It’s not inevitable or unavoidable. It is a choice.

isoFlux Wrote:a list of peer-reviewed articles

The Communist Manafesto. Reviewed by many socialists. Widely admired. Tried in an eighty year experiment. Proved to be utter crap. Still widely admired by people who refuse to accept reality.

I apologize for the heavy handed sarcasm, you’re obviously well versed in your beliefs. But one of the greatest fallacies of liberalism is that you have to feel like doing the right thing before you can act that way. That’s rubbish. If the Allies waited to start D-Day until every soldier felt like charging the beaches under a hail of murderous machine gun fire we’d still be waiting. People aren’t animals doomed to follow their instincts. We have the ability to weigh the consequences of our actions, and to choose to do the difficult thing now in order to get the results we want further down the road (delayed gratification).

It’s not just poor people in jail. There are lots of wealthy people who decided they wanted what they wanted when they wanted it and didn’t care if they broke the law to get it. Circumstances make the choice easier or harder, but it’s still a choice.