Fighting Evil

[The_Punisher]

I think it\'s due to Inner City culture more than anything else.

No one outside of cities seems to have any problems.

[=D.C.L.I=TuRb0jUg3nD]

Yes the inner city problem is apparant even where I come from. But your are being a bit vague. I think the causes mainly are social, cultural, economical and political. You seemed to be implying that some races are inherently more prone to crime than others. Thus the spanking.

[dr.moe]

i dont know about any of that craziness about racial representation in prison or how it relates to war, evil, good, use of force or whatever - but i do know that i cant dance, and i wont demonstrate.

now, back to using force as the best means to stop stuff, i partially agree with boomer. it can solve probs, but it causes as many as it squelches. it is possible to control a nation with brute force etc., but they tend to fall under their own weight. the USSR is a good example. the big reason(i think) is because mantaining that level of oppression is HARD, man.

here\'s a small example: this dude annoys you, so you beat the crap outta him. done - until his bro comes along; so you thrash him too. done - until they get their friend involved and they gang up on you; so you thrash all three of em like no other. done - until the dude\'s friend\'s bro gets involved...

it keeps getting bigger. the more pressure you exert the more pressure you have to mantain - and it just keeps growing. ruling with force is effective, but its just so damn easier and cheaper to do it peacefully-like.

but as for racism in prison and stuff: its different in each state. i live in a town right near the border of mexico, white peeps were something of a minority at my schools, etc. racism is here, i wont deny that, but its different. its region specific in its virulency, not a national epidemic. next time you glance over the stats, see what prisons were censussed and what the demographics are for the surrounding area. i dont know what you\'ll find, i havent looked. but just looking at numbers w/o looking at the source is like judging an iceberg by what you see above water. theres alot of stuff under the surface.

for good and evil - it all depends on your perspective. ive said all i want to say about that.

for cats and dogs - both.

for pepsi and coke - pepsi unless im bored(or cream soda if they got it!)

for here and there - where.

for now and then - the infinite millisecond!

for dream and goal - dream.

for pattern and chaos - chaos!

thats all i got for now.

[=D.C.L.I=TuRb0jUg3nD]

I\'m getting dead bored of my own political correctness here. You f*ckers! Ah well, at least I got good old misogny to cling on to!


Over and out - again.

[=D.C.L.I=Everest]

I\'m absolutely with Turbo on the \"more black people on death row?\" issue, but moe makes some points that make me want to start a thread on the subject; so I did! Now go, be opinionated or opinionate yourselves!

And that\'ll be the end of this thread. Done.

[Big-Al]

I don\'t like black metal much either...

...but black cloathing is sweet :tup:

but, realy, it does get tiering ths blackand white stuff...

[Sgt. Boomer]

It ain\'t done till it’s locked

No Ev, my point wasn’t that unrestrained force is the best way, my point was that it’s the easiest way, because it is effective. By the same token doing nothing is just as easy. But in the words of Edmund Burke, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Either extreme could be considered evil. “Good” lies somewhere in the middle, and it takes concerted effort, wisdom, and debate to find it.

It’s like the point I was making about Israel – if they really did behave like Nazis, as so many of their critics have said, the problem would be settled because the Palestinians would have been “wiped off the map” by now.

And extremism in the debates (globally I mean- not talking about you guys) – Bushitler, Israel a Nazi state, etc – while tempting, and easier, doesn’t help much either.

Which brings me to Joe. I hope that was sarcasm. Saddam used poison gas against thousands of civilians, spent billions on palaces while his people starved, his secret police tortured people by gouging out the eyes of their children in front of them, and executed dissidents by putting them feet first through a cardboard shredder. Abu Ghraib was the work of a few rogue soldiers, and so out of character for America that it was front page news for months.

I do believe in recent history the West has erred on the side of doing to little- particularly in the area of crime and punishment (more on that later). Positive reinforcement may be the best way, but when two-thirds of violent crime is committed by repeat offenders, it’s obvious that love isn’t all we need. Though I think indiscriminate nuking of civilians in the middle-east is going way too far the other way.

=D.C.L.I=TuRb0jUg3nD Wrote:What kind of book is it that you two (Boom + Pun) have read, all this pompous talk about nature "being the biggest force". Nietzsche or some such thing? Never mix heavy philosophy concerning good and evil (and beyond) with world politics. It always get ugly.

Nietzsche huh? Cute. I almost got whiplash doing a double take as it first went over my head, but I got it.

No, it is a reference to Aquinas and Natural Law, though vague enough to be taken in the context of Kant, Hume, and Darwin if you absolutely must.

Every law is based on someone’s ideas of right and wrong – and I much prefer a more time-honored Natural Law approach than the post-modern moral relativism of the day.

[joeb]

Sgt. Boomer Wrote:Which brings me to Joe. I hope that was sarcasm. Saddam used poison gas against thousands of civilians, spent billions on palaces while his people starved, his secret police tortured people by gouging out the eyes of their children in front of them, and executed dissidents by putting them feet first through a cardboard shredder.

I know a lot of that is true, although I think you made that cardboard shredder thing up on the spot.. I\'m not saying saddam wasn\'t evil, I\'m saying the US military also violates the human rights a lot.

Sgt. Boomer Wrote:Abu Ghraib was the work of a few rouge soldiers, and so out of character for America that it was front page news for months

Yeah, a true objective investigation went into that by, if I\'m not mistaken, the Pentagon.... Really man, you\'re not gonna convince me that torturing those people was \'work of a few rogue soldiers\'... Or \'so out of character for America\'.... believe me the US government does not give a shit about human rights!

But eh, ignorance is bliss no?

[dr.moe]

joeb Wrote:...

Sgt. Boomer Wrote:Abu Ghraib was the work of a few rouge soldiers, and so out of character for America that it was front page news for months

Yeah, a true objective investigation went into that by, if I\'m not mistaken, the Pentagon.... Really man, you\'re not gonna convince me that torturing those people was \'work of a few rogue soldiers\'... Or \'so out of character for America\'.... believe me the US government does not give a shit about human rights!

no. :\\ i had to take a breath before i started this post.

two things - first: the acts in abu graib were done by soldiers to soldiers, people to poeple - not governments to governments. please do not confuse a shared vision with an extremist(or radical, acolyte, any one person sharing the vision).

second: by what scale do you gauge america\'s compassion for human rights? seriously now, why would ANYONE, much less a group of rich white dudes, take the time, effort and cash and try to better someone else or make sure they\'re safe?! what can you gain by that?! debt. the nation\'s debt kinda explains that(im not saying that\'s all the US spends its cash on. but it doesnt all go toward bombs either).

big thing i wanted to say, the US military screwed up by forgetting something about human nature. there was a study performed in the bomb shelter of a university campus. the study involved two groups: prisoners and guards. the guards had no superiors and the prisoners had no rights.

in less than a month, the study went straight downhill. prisoners were being beaten, raped, violated in every concievable way. at first it was cool, boundaries were accepted and respect was shared. but it went down hill almost immediately. they cancelled the stud, and that experiment along with a couple others caused the US government to ban such experiments from being conducted. in the name of human rights ~ what reason do we have to subject humans to such disturbing experiments? there you go.

the US military forgot about this experiment, and now we are all paying the price.

[joeb]

dr.moe Wrote:two things - first: the acts in abu graib were done by soldiers to soldiers, people to poeple - not governments to governments. please do not confuse a shared vision with an extremist(or radical, acolyte, any one person sharing the vision).

Soldier follow orders, or at least should. Who give the orders? The military command, whom do they get their orders from? the government.

dr.moe Wrote:second: by what scale do you gauge america\'s compassion for human rights? seriously now, why would ANYONE, much less a group of rich white dudes, take the time, effort and cash and try to better someone else or make sure they\'re safe?! what can you gain by that?! debt. the nation\'s debt kinda explains that(im not saying that\'s all the US spends its cash on. but it doesnt all go toward bombs either).

Am I wrong here or are ye saying that just because it\'s pricey human rights shouldn\'t need to be honoured??

And I don\'t think you should view this in a \'what\'s to be gained from it\' perspective. It isn\'t called a human \'right\' for nothing.

dr.moe Wrote:big thing i wanted to say, the US military screwed up by forgetting something about human nature. there was a study performed in the bomb shelter of a university campus. the study involved two groups: prisoners and guards. the guards had no superiors and the prisoners had no rights.

in less than a month, the study went straight downhill. prisoners were being beaten, raped, violated in every concievable way. at first it was cool, boundaries were accepted and respect was shared. but it went down hill almost immediately. they cancelled the stud, and that experiment along with a couple others caused the US government to ban such experiments from being conducted. in the name of human rights ~ what reason do we have to subject humans to such disturbing experiments? there you go.

the US military forgot about this experiment, and now we are all paying the price.

An interesting study yes, very. But I don\'t think it proves the point that it\'s just the soldiers acting up there. I mean something like that torturing should be noticed very early on.

Also, according to that study, how come this stuff didn\'t happen with other captives like in the Dutch\'s military prison? Either it\'s allowed from above, or the us military doesn\'t care about what happens and simply doesn\'t look.